Like just about anything else in the world, I always need to get in
my 'But....' =)

Not all caves are created equal. Some caves are so large they bring
people through in large tour groups. Others are so small that you
need to wiggle through like a worm--after taking off most of your
clothes to makes sure you can fit through. Some caves have delicate
formations, while others such as talus caves don't really have much
of anything that's delicate.

Ape Cave--a lava tube--near Mount St. Helens probably gets a
thousand people a day going through on busy days. It's probably the
easiest, safest 'wild' cave I've ever been in, and I think it would
be an excellent place for a box. I did that one by myself, but it
wasn't really a big deal. I've been on outdoor trails that were
harder and scarier than this one.

Greenhorn cave--near Bakersfield--I wouldn't recommend anybody do
that alone nor without a helmet. It's not *especially* dangerous--
except for perhaps the exit. But why take the chance? It probably
gets a few people in a week, and if the worst were to happen while
you were in it, help would be a long way off. And there's some very
tight places where things could go wrong or hit your head.

One cave I visited (Paradise Cave near Yosemite) hadn't had a single
person log into the logbook at the entrance for three months. If
something bad happened in there and you couldn't get out--they'd be
finding a corpse!

But you know, I'd still be for hiding a letterbox in the cave. But
you have to remember who your audience is. Especially for that last
cave--where there are delicate cave formations and gets a visitor
every few months--I'd never put it on the main letterboxing site.
That's not who my intended audience is. My intended audience would
be other cavers, and I'd share the clue with those people. People I
knew would take proper safety precautions and treat the cave
formations with respect. And in the clue, there would be a special
warning about cave dangers--just in case the clues got into the
wrong hands.

So I hope you don't discount the idea of hiding letterboxes in caves
*completely*. =) They certainly do have a place in letterboxing,
but there are 'special considerations' to be made in hiding boxes in
caves.

On an unrelated note, I still dream of hiding a letterbox a hundred
or two feet up in a tree. I haven't figured out how to get up there
yet, but one of these days..... However, such a box would be for
experienced tree climbers only! =)

-- Ryan

"Not all caves are created equal"!!! Oh the blasphemy! Don't let the NSS hear that one!! Actually, I do agree. There are caves and then there are CAVES. That's why folks should let their conscience, and common sense guide them. But I was really serious about the dangers. There is a whole group of volunteers, the National Cave Rescue Corp, who do nothing but pull people from caves. Often locals or "flashlight" cavers who did not have a map and did not know what they were getting into. There was just a death recently of a bunch of teenagers who were partying in a cave, a local hangout that everyone knew and used all of the time, and were killed by bad air (carbon monoxide). The NSS does not get involved with the show caves, they are privately owned, nor caves in Nat' Park usuually because they are federally protected. But we raise a lot of money every year to buy and protect private caves. So just BE CAREFUL. The cave you thought you knew really well could turn out to be your last. By
the way, since many are talking about their animal "totems" mine is a bat, well a dancing bear bat. Which combines my two great loves, the grateful dead and caving (the bat is the international symbol of the caver). Take care and as we say in the caving community "Happy Holes" or "Cave Softly"



rscarpen wrote:
Like just about anything else in the world, I always need to get in
my 'But....' =)

Not all caves are created equal. Some caves are so large they bring
people through in large tour groups. Others are so small that you
need to wiggle through like a worm--after taking off most of your
clothes to makes sure you can fit through. Some caves have delicate
formations, while others such as talus caves don't really have much
of anything that's delicate.

Ape Cave--a lava tube--near Mount St. Helens probably gets a
thousand people a day going through on busy days. It's probably the
easiest, safest 'wild' cave I've ever been in, and I think it would
be an excellent place for a box. I did that one by myself, but it
wasn't really a big deal. I've been on outdoor trails that were
harder and scarier than this one.

Greenhorn cave--near Bakersfield--I wouldn't recommend anybody do
that alone nor without a helmet. It's not *especially* dangerous--
except for perhaps the exit. But why take the chance? It probably
gets a few people in a week, and if the worst were to happen while
you were in it, help would be a long way off. And there's some very
tight places where things could go wrong or hit your head.

One cave I visited (Paradise Cave near Yosemite) hadn't had a single
person log into the logbook at the entrance for three months. If
something bad happened in there and you couldn't get out--they'd be
finding a corpse!

But you know, I'd still be for hiding a letterbox in the cave. But
you have to remember who your audience is. Especially for that last
cave--where there are delicate cave formations and gets a visitor
every few months--I'd never put it on the main letterboxing site.
That's not who my intended audience is. My intended audience would
be other cavers, and I'd share the clue with those people. People I
knew would take proper safety precautions and treat the cave
formations with respect. And in the clue, there would be a special
warning about cave dangers--just in case the clues got into the
wrong hands.

So I hope you don't discount the idea of hiding letterboxes in caves
*completely*. =) They certainly do have a place in letterboxing,
but there are 'special considerations' to be made in hiding boxes in
caves.

On an unrelated note, I still dream of hiding a letterbox a hundred
or two feet up in a tree. I haven't figured out how to get up there
yet, but one of these days..... However, such a box would be for
experienced tree climbers only! =)

-- Ryan


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Oh the blasphemy! Don't let the NSS hear that one!!

*grin*

> So just BE CAREFUL.

That's good advice, inside of caves and out. Caves just have
special considerations that non-cavers generally don't realize.

I know someone who once got stuck in a hole in a cave and couldn't
budge herself out. Pulling and pushing didn't do any good. Davy
jokingly took her not to worry, they'll bring down food to feed her
if necessary--as long it took to get her free! (I think he was just
trying to calm her nerves.) He eventually found another route to
the other side of the hole and took off her pants, which was enough
to get her loose.

We had a lot of fun with that story after the fact, but it wasn't
funny at the time!

-- Ryan

And where there are bats, there's guano, and where there's guano, there's
Histoplasmosis (well, moreso in some parts of the country than others)...so
that's another thing to keep in mind.

--klk/FungusWoman (who may be a mere fungus, but at least we Fungi have our
own Kingdom!)


Message: 14
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hikers_n_ Hounds
Subject: Letterboxing in Caves
..."Caves are often home to Bats. I am a member of BCI - Bat Conservation
International. Bats are a very useful mammal in that they eat thousands of
pounds of bugs a night. A nursery colony that gets disturbed can be
irreparably harmed."...



Irene

Hikers & Hounds


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very true, and as we saying in the caving community....."guano happens".

Think about it, it'll come to you.

Kathi LK Krankoski wrote:
And where there are bats, there's guano, and where there's guano, there's
Histoplasmosis (well, moreso in some parts of the country than others)...so
that's another thing to keep in mind.

--klk/FungusWoman (who may be a mere fungus, but at least we Fungi have our
own Kingdom!)


Message: 14
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hikers_n_ Hounds
Subject: Letterboxing in Caves
..."Caves are often home to Bats. I am a member of BCI - Bat Conservation
International. Bats are a very useful mammal in that they eat thousands of
pounds of bugs a night. A nursery colony that gets disturbed can be
irreparably harmed."...



Irene

Hikers & Hounds


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got stuck for over an hour in my second cave, somewhere near Po Paddy State Park in PA. I was dating the current Mr. Irene at the time. I descended through a corkscrew squeeze which was very tight. When it was time to ascend, gravity (and my rather larger bottom) worked against me. What I was able to squeeze together on the way down would not squeeze as well on the way up. They tried everything, even pulling on me until I thought my arms were gonna pop out of their sockets. Finally we tried one last thing before we called the NCRC (National Cave REsecue Corps). Instead of pushing up and forward facing front, I turned around on my back and and pushed up and backwards. I got to use all of my back and leg mucles and had much better purchase. I popped out like a baby being born. When I agreed to back into another cave the next day (it was a camping and caving weekend) my then boyfriends caving club declared me "a keeper". Boy the things women will do for love!

Irene - H&H

rscarpen wrote:
> Oh the blasphemy! Don't let the NSS hear that one!!

*grin*

> So just BE CAREFUL.

That's good advice, inside of caves and out. Caves just have
special considerations that non-cavers generally don't realize.

I know someone who once got stuck in a hole in a cave and couldn't
budge herself out. Pulling and pushing didn't do any good. Davy
jokingly took her not to worry, they'll bring down food to feed her
if necessary--as long it took to get her free! (I think he was just
trying to calm her nerves.) He eventually found another route to
the other side of the hole and took off her pants, which was enough
to get her loose.

We had a lot of fun with that story after the fact, but it wasn't
funny at the time!

-- Ryan


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeesh, now I have to add the K-Y Jelly to my backpack.
Psychomom


-- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers_n_ Hounds
wrote:
> I got stuck for over an hour in my second cave, somewhere near Po
Paddy State Park in PA. I was dating the current Mr. Irene at the
time. I descended through a corkscrew squeeze which was very tight.
When it was time to ascend, gravity (and my rather larger bottom)
worked against me. What I was able to squeeze together on the way
down would not squeeze as well on the way up. They tried everything,
even pulling on me until I thought my arms were gonna pop out of
their sockets. Finally we tried one last thing before we called the
NCRC (National Cave REsecue Corps). Instead of pushing up and forward
facing front, I turned around on my back and and pushed up and
backwards. I got to use all of my back and leg mucles and had much
better purchase. I popped out like a baby being born. When I agreed
to back into another cave the next day (it was a camping and caving
weekend) my then boyfriends caving club declared me "a keeper". Boy
the things women will do for love!
>
> Irene - H&H
>
> rscarpen wrote:
> > Oh the blasphemy! Don't let the NSS hear that one!!
>
> *grin*
>
> > So just BE CAREFUL.
>
> That's good advice, inside of caves and out. Caves just have
> special considerations that non-cavers generally don't realize.
>
> I know someone who once got stuck in a hole in a cave and couldn't
> budge herself out. Pulling and pushing didn't do any good. Davy
> jokingly took her not to worry, they'll bring down food to feed her
> if necessary--as long it took to get her free! (I think he was
just
> trying to calm her nerves.) He eventually found another route to
> the other side of the hole and took off her pants, which was enough
> to get her loose.
>
> We had a lot of fun with that story after the fact, but it wasn't
> funny at the time!
>
> -- Ryan
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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Service.
>
>
>
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> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1,001 uses...or is that duct tape?

psycomommy2003 wrote: Jeesh, now I have to add the K-Y Jelly to my backpack.
Psychomom


-- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers_n_ Hounds
wrote:
> I got stuck for over an hour in my second cave, somewhere near Po
Paddy State Park in PA. I was dating the current Mr. Irene at the
time. I descended through a corkscrew squeeze which was very tight.
When it was time to ascend, gravity (and my rather larger bottom)
worked against me. What I was able to squeeze together on the way
down would not squeeze as well on the way up. They tried everything,
even pulling on me until I thought my arms were gonna pop out of
their sockets. Finally we tried one last thing before we called the
NCRC (National Cave REsecue Corps). Instead of pushing up and forward
facing front, I turned around on my back and and pushed up and
backwards. I got to use all of my back and leg mucles and had much
better purchase. I popped out like a baby being born. When I agreed
to back into another cave the next day (it was a camping and caving
weekend) my then boyfriends caving club declared me "a keeper". Boy
the things women will do for love!
>
> Irene - H&H
>
> rscarpen wrote:
> > Oh the blasphemy! Don't let the NSS hear that one!!
>
> *grin*
>
> > So just BE CAREFUL.
>
> That's good advice, inside of caves and out. Caves just have
> special considerations that non-cavers generally don't realize.
>
> I know someone who once got stuck in a hole in a cave and couldn't
> budge herself out. Pulling and pushing didn't do any good. Davy
> jokingly took her not to worry, they'll bring down food to feed her
> if necessary--as long it took to get her free! (I think he was
just
> trying to calm her nerves.) He eventually found another route to
> the other side of the hole and took off her pants, which was enough
> to get her loose.
>
> We had a lot of fun with that story after the fact, but it wasn't
> funny at the time!
>
> -- Ryan
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You wanna be real careful not to mix those two up. ;-)

Czeltic Girl

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers_n_ Hounds
wrote:
> 1,001 uses...or is that duct tape?
>
> psycomommy2003 wrote: Jeesh, now I have to add
the K-Y Jelly to my backpack.
> Psychomom